This was linked on Crendor's Twitter last night. It is the first image you get when you GIS "Paris Hilton whore".
If anyone was paying attention to Twitter last night, it was a blood bath. A fairly well-known WoW machinima creator by the name of Crendor (aka WoWCrendor) decided last night to use Twitter as his personal platform to berate women who dress like “whores.” What surprised me the most was not that his fans jumped up to support him but the sheer number of people who Tweeted or re-Tweeted things that myself and others were saying about how sexist and victim-blaming he was. Instead of initially apologizing for the whole thing, he got wildly indignant and decided to dig the hole deeper, including tying a woman’s dress to the amount of times she gets creeped, abused or cheated on. Sound suspiciously familiar?
WoWCrendor finally pushed out an apology later, with little to no self-awareness of what he actually did wrong or why that train of thought was so damaging and promptly deleted most of the tweets. I have them all saved here if people wish to see them in the unvarnished light of day. I’m really disappointed by this as he was one of my favorite movie creators by far. I felt like he wasn’t one of the douchebags that randomly populate every aspect of gaming culture.
Now, I’m not writing this article just to point fingers at Crendor. Goodness knows I did enough of that last night on Twitter. I think we all need to sit down as a community and think about what he said, why he said it and confront some really thorny issues. Because Crendor isn’t just a bad dude who said this. A lot of dudes say this. A lot of gals do too. This right here, this train of thought is what directly contributes to rape, abuse and other forms of harassment being so hard to punish for, because societally, we feel the real instigator of all of these things is not the person who committed the act, but the person who was victimized. They wore the wrong thing, they said the wrong thing, they dared to be in an alley or a bar, I could go on. We’ve grown so used to believing that the woman in this scenario brought it on herself that there’s little to no mention about the person who is culpable – morally, ethically and legally.
What is this called? The actual term that gets used in most feminist circles is “victim blaming.”
Victim blaming occurs when the victim(s) of a crime, an accident, or any type of abusive maltreatment are held entirely or partially responsible for the transgressions committed against them. Blaming the victim has traditionally emerged especially inracist and sexist forms.[1] However, this attitude may exist independently from these radical views and even be at least half-official in some countries.[2]
People familiar with victimology are much less likely to see the victim as responsible.[3] Knowledge about prior relationship between victim and perpetrator increases perceptions of victim blame for rape, but not for robbery.[4]
World of Warcraft is obviously a fictional world and a video game and we don’t all physically interact with eachother. So it might feel like a lot of what was said last night doesn’t really apply to my little blog, but it does. It’s very apparent if you read my blog that the feelings and mores that we have about the real world very often carry themselves into our virtual spaces. Not only do people we deem “celebrities” in our nerdy little niche of the Internet say terrible things about 50 percent of their possible fan-base, but we have to deal with victim-blaming inside the game, even. Victim-blaming is such a pervasive thought that at it’s weakest concentration, it is even a defense for bullying and trolling. Have you ever thought, “well, they were just asking for it” and then done something mean or rude? Yeah. It’s that too.
But let’s bring it back a little. I was stalked and harassed via World of Warcraft by someone in my friend circle. You might even say that we had a slightly friendlier-than-friends relationship. I dance around this because even though I have a restraining order against this person now, since he’s been harassing me via blogs, Twitter, and WoW for well over 3 years, I still know that there’s many people who will read this and say, “Well, didn’t you do XYZ with him? That’s why he’s doing this to you.” See? Why is the person who is sending me rape threats on a daily basis less culpable of harassment than me, the person who gets to put up with this abuse daily? See how illogical it is? Or did it not even occur prior to someone you know saying something like this for you to see that?
This is why I’m exceptionally annoyed with someone like Crendor using a platform that is public and open to his entire fanbase to directly spout victim-blaming and other sexist malarky. Because all it does is serve to reinforce some really scary ideas that, out in the wild, have managed to make it hard to report any sort of abuse or rape or harassment by the victim because of what the backlash will be. It’s even become so normalized that women should expect and understand that they will be hit on because they were dressing sexy. And that they should just deal with that. Why is it that when the crime becomes involved with sex or abuse that suddenly we don’t find the person who did those things responsible? We don’t say that the bank was “just asking” to be robbed by having all that money inside of its vaults.
I want WoW celebrities to rise out of the primordial ooze, much like everyone else in our culture, and stop putting the fault of a crime on the person who had the crime committed against them. I want people to stop using their status and their public forums to spreading the same garbage we hear every day. I want there to be repercussions and consequences for thinking this is an okay idea to espouse professionally. I want people to think about this in all areas of their life, from bullying to abuse, to rape and even stuff like just creeping on someone at a bar. Unhook your brain from its track of “they were asking for it” and think about “what can I do to stop this from happening to more people?” We can even try all we like to make people “less of the victims” as we have been for years, but we really need to focus our efforts on not creating new criminals and bullies.
Clothes are just clothes, Crendor. They are swatches of material we use to express ourselves. They do not, however, force a person to do something to them. They do not ask for things. They are garments we wear for various reasons. A woman should be allowed to wear what she wants and not be at fault when lots of dudes feel compelled to hit on her in a creepy way. Dudes should stop hitting on people in creepy ways and if you think that clothes have anything to do with it, I have a bridge I’d like to sell you.
(Note, the bridge is wearing pasties and a thong. Hope that helps.)
Apple Cider Mage 
The closing lines of your post got a grin out of me.
I’ve never understood why “stop dressing sexy, victim” is the instant societal response, and not “stop being a creepy rapist/harasser, criminal”.
I missed the whole Twitter throwdown last night, and it’s a shame that Crendor doesn’t appear like he actually learned anything or took it to heart. Only thing we can really do is make him feel the effects of his closed-minded and mysoginistic views, and simply avoid watching his videos in the future. I do my best not to support people that have caveman-era viewpoints on how the world should work.
I think there’s a blurry line between victim-blaming and decrying naivety. It’s certainly true that any woman should be able to wear whatever she likes without risking an attack. Of course it is. But it’s also true that I should be able to leave my car unlocked with my laptop on the back seat and not have to worry about it. I *should* but I *can’t*, because reality doesn’t just fall in line with our ideals. We’re not going to prevent crime by telling potential victims they shouldn’t have to be careful. Abdication of responsibility is never the answer.
Unfortunately though putting the onus of responsibility solely on the victim sets up an ideological stance that the only people we need to talk to is potential victims and not potential criminals. And here you have victim blaming culture.
There’s nothing a woman or man wears that makes them immune to rape, sorry to say. Rape is one of those crimes that is motivated by thoughts and desires of the criminal. So is harassment. So is abuse. People aren’t cars. You can wear whatever you want and you can still be raped or attacked. I can be standing by myself not talking to anyone and I’ve still had men hit on me in a weird and creepy way. So your argument falls a little flat. The idea that a potential victim has to act perfectly implies that if they don’t, they deserve or will probably be victimized. And that’s the wrong thing to push on people.
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH!! Rape is not theft.
There is no correlation between what women wear and their liklihood of getting raped. Women get raped in PJs, in duffle coats, in miniskirts and in full length burkas. Its merely an excuse that people use.
Dressing sexily might make men want to have sex with you, yes. So the fuck what. Rape doesn’t become OK because they wanted to have sex with the woman, its about whether the woman wanted to have sex with them. And if they didn’t – regardless of what they are wearing, its rape.
This this this.
“There is no correlation between what women wear and their liklihood of getting raped. Women get raped in PJs, in duffle coats, in miniskirts and in full length burkas. Its merely an excuse that people use.”
So much this. In my misspent teenage years, I used to wear what Crendor would describe as “whorish” clothing. My Grandmamma was a great believer in, “if you have it flaunt it, if you haven’t fake it” and I grew up with that as a maxim. Yes, I got a few creepy people asking me out but no one laid an unwanted hand on me.
Fast forward a few years and I got attacked leaving my University library dressed like a yeti (not a costume, just a massive fluffy white coat and hat). Hell, I got stalked online by a guildmate who’d never seen a photograph of me but had a few very graphic ideas in his head about what he wanted to do to me.
It doesn’t matter what you wear or what you look like to most sexual predators. Blaming us is just a pathetic excuse to try and cover up their behaviour. An excuse which should not be tolerated and certainly not perpetuated.
perfect comment
The line is not *so* blurry. The tweet in question is again: “If you dress like a whore, you’ll get treated like one.”
He didn’t tweet “safety first!” or “be careful and lock your car after you remove your valuables!” He tweeted a *threat* that any woman that dresses in a way that he considers whoreish is fair-game for however he’d like to treat them.
Further, victims of rape, assault, and harassment have *very little* responsibility to abdicate, and any discussion with a victim of things she could have done to be safer need to be made *very* carefully. Tweeting about how it’s “common sense” that anyone can do whatever they want to women that “dress like whores” is none of those things.
So here’s what I’ll say: the second someone says “women! You should engage in risky behavior!” then I’ll be more on your side. As long as what’s happening is instead someone saying “women! Anything I do to you is TOTALLY YOUR FAULT,” well, let’s just say that I’m not really worried about women “abdicating” their responsibility to try not to get raped.
If someone holds modesty (for both women AND men) as the moral high ground, I’m fine with that. But the *instant* someone thinks immodest folks ought to be punished, or deserve backlash, they lose all credibility and ought to be ashamed of themselves.
Ugh. Thanks for writing this, I missed it completely on Twitter last night. Sometimes it’s embarrassing and shameful to remain a member of the WoW community. This kind of backward thinking and ignorance and a *refusal to correct such thought* just kills me.
I saw the tip of this shit-iceberg last night, and wow. Just wow.
The continuation of the BS attitude as a woman, we cannot express ourselves in any way we want to, lest we “ask for it.” Watch out ladies, we live solely for the enjoyment of men!
Same with victim-blaming. Growing up, we’re taught “don’t walk alone at night!” “don’t drink too much at parties!” “Don’t wear revealing clothing!”, but funny enough, no one ever says “why don’t we teach men not to rape?”
I’m shocked and horrified at this. Crendor – enjoy your downfall.
Such excitement the first day I joined Twitter. Yikes!
But, in all seriousness, thanks for writing this post, and for pointing out it’s relevnace to SlutWalk and their cause. I’ve followed them a bit, and one of the things that always struck me were the “I was raped wearing sweats and a hoodie” signs. Talk about getting the message across.
I wonder about how this impacts WoW. With all the guys and gals that dress their female characters in super revealing clothing. Do you think Crendor, or anyone, expects his sexy, mageweave covered character, is “asking for it?” I doubt they do. It’s a virtual world, but we care for a characters in some degree, something to ponder at least.
I think there may be some disconnect concerning what it means to be “treated like a whore”. Does being treated like a whore equate to being raped or abused? I don’t think so. When I think of how whores get treated I think of women being seen as physical rather than emotional beings. I think of them being propositioned. When I think of a whore I think of a prostitute, and it’s not more okay to rape or abuse a prostitute than it is women with other jobs. So with that in mind, yes I do think women who dress like whores should expect to be treated like one. I always think of this Dave Chappelle skit when this topic comes up – http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/763c6bf8cc/dave-chappelle-whores-uniform-from-standupfan
But what is “dressing like a whore”? I’ve been in countries whearing shorts that would be considered grandma-shorts here, but seen as completely whore-ish in that country. I’ve also seen two girls wear the same shirt. On one it looked trashy, on the other, classy. The shirt had no difference, it’s apperance was completely dependent on the attitude of the wearer.
Stupid work computer hates videos so I can’t watch the link. Apologies if there was some argument changing revelation hidden in it, but until then I don’t think there can be any outfit that is “whore-ish” inherently.
I definitely think it is some dependent on where you are, and also some dependent on your attitude. There are of course some outfits that are going to look whorish no matter who is wearing them (such as the one in the image above).I could understand if someone was visiting a more conservative area than they are used to them not expecting it, but I’d think they would learn pretty fast.
I’d really appreciate if you’d stop calling outfits “whoreish” from now on. If that’s how you honestly feel about fellow women in a revealing or sexually enticing way, I’d prefer you find another way of referring to them that’s less sex-negative.
To Apple Cider:
I was only using the original language and the langue of the person who responded to me.
If you read my post, did you miss where I said that clothes don’t make someoner responsible for what someone else does to them. Dressing like a “whore” does not mean you are asking for people to treat you like one, nor should we ignore the people who treat others in this way. It’s sexist garbage.
If you read my comment, did you miss how I never made someone responsible for what someone else does to them? I said they should expect it. There is a difference between expecting a reaction from someone and being responsible for said action. I also never said anything about ignoring those who proposition women who do not want such attention.
For the record I believe men can also dress in a fashion that will result in certain types of attention, and I think they should expect it as well. I say this to point out I’m not sexist in this belief.
Are there any women out there legitimately who need to be told to expect creepy men to hit on them, or even why that’s relevant? It still sounds like they need to expect it because their clothing will produce that reaction and that’s still not talking about the real point here.
Also sexism affects both men and women, in vastly different ways, so being “equal” on that opinion doesn’t negate sexism.
I have seen women act very surprised that men treated them a certain way (and let me be clear, I am only talking about perfectly legal and legit actions such as being hit on, NOT rape or abuse), when IMO they shouldn’t have been. Yes I know it is ultimately the men who make these choices, and that women can be treated in these ways regardless of what they are wearing, but you can’t tell me it isn’t more likely if you are wearing extremely sexual clothing. Their clothing doesn’t produce the reaction, but I believe it does make the reaction more likely.
I also believe there is nothing inherently wrong in men acting is such a way. Some women enjoy it. Some women actually are prostitutes and would be out of a job if men everywhere stopped acting this way. The problem lies in men who come on too strong too fast before they know if the women they are approaching will like it, or those who do not back off when they should.
Anyway I think I’ve explained my point of view as best as I can. I know that I’m not sexist, nor am I victim blaming, but you can believe about me whatever you please. Ultimately it makes no difference to me.
Since this is getting blown out of proportion already, let me explain what I actually meant by it. Not at any time was I trying to support rape, and to think people actually think I was, makes me sick. When I posted that tweet, I meant “being treated like a whore” to mean getting approached by douchey guys that will try to hook up with you/hit on you because you look easy (Which is a sad fact, that some men will do this). That does not mean I would ever do such a thing either, but we live in a world filled with criminals, psychotic, and evil people. I would love to be able to leave my door unlocked to my car, but I know that if I don’t, there’s a chance it may get stolen. I am all for people, men and women, expressing themselves, and I honestly don’t care what people dress themselves in, but I posted this because I was tired of seeing women that go out to clubs and get hit on by scumbags that DO judge women based on their looks/clothing. I do not want anyone to be raped, and I never intended the phrase “treated like a whore” to mean rape at all. That is what happens when people have different views of the word. I shouldn’t have said it at all, but since I did, I thought I should at least explain what I meant by it.
If you want to judge me based off one tweet, that’s your choice, but to then tell someone not to judge others based off their clothing, to me, seems hypocritical. As I stated before, I do not want anyone to be abused, emotionally or physically, and I have a lot of female friends that I consider to be like sisters, and would never want anything bad to happen to them.
1.) First off, you are saying that women are dressing like whores and getting treated as such. That’s really intensely sexist/inflammatory language. You could have said skimpy, or revealing or any other descriptive word that’s not mired in a lot of historical shaming of both women and sex workers.
2.) Talking about how clothes invite a certain type of behaviour is but one small facet of victim-blaming, which feeds into a larger idea. That idea is that we focus hard on what a victim (person, whatever) was doing or saying or wearing as directly correlated or inviting a certain kind of bad behaviour to themselves but NOT the person doing the bad behaviour. Why are we doing that? That’s what I sought to address. You might not have said women are inviting men to rape them via their clothes, but saying women are inviting men sleazily hit on them follows the same line of thinking. Do you see how even though it is a smaller, more benign facet of that that it has very similar roots?
3.) “but I posted this because I was tired of seeing women that go out to clubs and get hit on by scumbags that DO judge women based on their looks/clothing.”
You’re tired of seeing women get hit on by scumbags? Why don’t you address the *scumbags* – they are the ones doing this bad stuff. Women deserve to be left alone by scumbags no matter WHAT they wear. I’ve been creepily hit on while wearing a hoodie and jeans, standing alone bundled up at a bus stop. Clothes of any sort do not invite nor contribute to a dude being creepy on you. If they want to sleaze all over you, they will. Men who are into that do not even hesitate to question if something is appropriate, if you are female, it’ll happen. So why is clothing even the issue here and not the sleazeball?
Your one tweet is what started this discussion but your indignance and a lot of your other tweets indicated that you do not understand nor really sympathize with a position of people who have been victimized or there is no way you would have said some of that. I hope that you take some of these things to heart and maybe reflect on why we need to address creepers, not women and their clothes.
If you’re tired of seeing women get judged based on looks/clothing then why didn’t you just tweet “tip to guys: don’t judge women based on what they wear #commonsense”?
I’ve also seen you say that you posted it because *you* prefer women who cover up. So which is it? You posted based on your own preference or because you wanted to “warn” women about how they dress?
Please don’t say that it’s hypocritical to judge you by your tweet. There was literally no other way to interpret that tweet as anything other than judgmental of women who show skin.
I still don’t understand how anyone can compare theft of or from an inanimate object to harassment or sexual assault, but if we are going to go that route: my car was locked, everything was tucked out of sight, and it still got broken into. ‘Likewise’, I was fully dressed in entirely non-revealing clothing, with friends, in a place that I knew well, and I was still assaulted. Someone who CHOOSES TO break into a car is held responsible for it, so why the hell isn’t someone who CHOOSES TO assault, harass, or rape considered the responsible party?
But comparing these to each other leaves me with an awful taste in my mouth, because here’s the thing: if you compare people to inanimate objects, you sound frighteningly like you think people – women in particular – ARE inanimate objects, that we’re going to be used because we exist. So you’ve never raped anyone, that’s great – but despite that you’re still comparing women to cars. That, right there, is rape culture. That is PARTICIPATION in rape culture.
I’m not trying to say that a woman is an object, I’m trying to say that bad things are going to happen because evil people exist. The point with the car was supposed to be that evil and psychotic people will take advantage of the situation more often if it’s easier for them. I think it is sick and disgusting that someone would ever choose to do any crime, whether theft, abuse, etc. but like I said before, that is the world we live in.
It’s awful that you were assaulted, and I am not saying that the person who is committing the crime is responsible. They are 100% responsible and things like that should never happen. I never said that the person who commits the crime isn’t responsible. I still think it’s sickening that you think I am “participating” in rape culture, when I would never support rape, and to think that I was trying to portray that from anything I said means you mistook what I was trying to get across. I’m sure you’ve had moments where you said something you wish you worded differently, but acted to hastily and chose the wrong words.
2nd part should be “and I am not saying that the person who is committing the crime isn’t responsible.” I obviously think the person that commits the crime is responsible.
Then why not make comments towards them in the future instead of cautioning women not to wear certain things in fairly sexist language? I get that people say fucked up shit. But when you get called on it, apologize and learn. Really read what people say and listen. Bad things happen from bad people. We are saying it has NOTHING to do with any number of factors that women get fed to “ward off” shit happening to them, it happens because someone wants to rape you, or hit on you or grope you or break into your car. Basing it on what you wear or do means the victim feels like they were responsible for a heinous crime.
This is a long, but great, blog post that I think might benefit you in regards to understanding why I am upset (it probably works for other commentators here, too, but I can only guarantee that this is an insight into how *I* feel). Of course, it might just make you angry; I simply hope that it’s more of an eye-opener than anything else.
http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/08/29/chronicles-of-mansplaining-professor-feminism-and-the-deleted-comments-of-doom/
Hey Crendor. I was in your shoes once, so I understand the road you’re going down now.
You’re getting defensive. Really defensive. You just got called out for saying something terrible — and you think that you’re being attacked as a result of that.
But you’re not. The things you said are, rightfully, being targeted. They were pretty sexist — blatantly so, especially from a perspective that isn’t quite as privileged. They contribute to a mentality that is incredibly pervasive not just in “real life” but also in the virtual world — and especially in gaming culture.
Your immediate defense is pretty typical — that it wasn’t your intent — and I believe you! I really believe that you wouldn’t want to rape anyone, and that you really do have a lot of women who you consider friends. But that isn’t the problem.
The issue here, however, is that you said something that contributes to that aforementioned terrible culture.
Now you basically have two choices — you can get defensive, feel attacked, and hide in a shell… or you can figure out -why- what you said was so problematic. If the latter sounds good, then:
You probably read over what Apple Cider said above while you were mad or upset (or confused). Read it again, but with a cool head.
Then read this: http://genderbitch.wordpress.com/2010/01/23/intent-its-fucking-magic/
Finally, keep reading. You’re going to react poorly to some of this stuff, but don’t immediately respond to it. Soak it in. -Keep reading.- Talk to friends. I saw you talking with Michael Sacco from WoW Insider at the BlizzCon meetup thing. He’s pretty up on this stuff. Talk to him. He was in a similar boat, too.
Seriously: You have a big voice in the community. If you can take this gracefully and learn from it, not only will you be a much better person, but you’ll also help change the entire community for the better.
Thanks for the reply. I am always open to other people’s perspectives and learning more, so it’s not going to make me upset. After letting things settle down a bit, I am seeing that I definitely was way too defensive about my statement which I wasn’t trying to support in the first place, but I mainly defended it because nobody likes to feel like they are being attacked. I think life should be a learning experience, and that’s why even though this experience/mistake caused me a lot of stress, I think I will become a better person because of it. It’s definitely taught me quite a bit.
Well thanks for participating and really listening/learning, Crendor. It’s really appreciated. Good luck to you.
Other people have mentioned this already, but I want to draw your attention to something your brain is doing that you don’t even realize. You’re talking about how ‘evil exists’ and ‘criminals exist’ and when you do this, you’re treating men-as-rapists as an intractable, irresistible force. This engenders a very unhealthy passivity on your part, and this is one of the things you will (have to) learn to see yourself doing if you intend to get any better at not being a misogynist. It’s something everybody has or has had to learn, and you’re not being branded with a scarlet M for needing to do this, but you must learn it, and to do that you have to do something that we, as guys, tend to be pretty bad at: stop telling people – in this case, women – what the narrative is and just listen.
Hey that’s my tactic!!!!! (The use of female attraction at the beginning of the blog post – http://www.shatteredbeginnings.blogspot.com/2011/10/new-mind-sets-and-blizzcon.html) Only kidding… I had an excuse :P
Oh, this is actually a serious post..
WOW. This has really got my mind buzzing. Has really opened my mind up to some big pictures.
To the extent I can agree completely with what you are saying. Really. You have given me a valuable perspective.
HOWEVER, one point. How to put this.. I am with Crendor to an extent. Let me clarify what I think he meant, or I, am trying to say further:
Basically, your right, nobody deservers it and nothing they do should warrant it “being deserved”.
1) I think the idea that he didn’t mean it in terms of rape/sexual, is an important point. AGAIN, Don’t jump the gun yet. Mean, if you ‘dress’ in a explicit/sexual manner, then you will get second-looks (Which TO AN EXTENT is human nature. Can’t deny that, man nor woman. Mean if a huge muscle man walks into the bar with no top on, women will look and vice versa. But that’s no so much of a problem, you can expect that).
To an extent that the way you dress and present yourself, as looking attractive in whatever manner will yield you more ‘pulling power’ I.E. Pulling the ‘creeps’ to. Mean, you put in the effort for a reason don’t you? (Yes, some will say they do it for themselves, but I know I put on a my party gear, do my hair, to have better success with the ladies =D)
2) Also, girls/men who usually present themselves in a ‘sexual/revealing’ fashion, usually carry a very flirtatious and what’s the word.. tempting, no.. you know what I mean.. manner. There behavioural will attract creeps of course. STILL NOT SAYING THEY DESERVE ANYTHING. But as soon as it crosses that line of “creeps trying to score -to- any form of harrassment sexual or not”, then the fault is PURELY with the criminal not the victim.
Should have just written a response post instead :)
I think, at least for me, there is something positive to take from this instance, thanks for making be aware!
I had a discussion with Oestrus about this at lunch today – even if you dress sexy to look sexy and flirty, that doesn’t mean you wish to have sex with anyone or everyone and especially not creeps. The point is that the clothes and the dress is for your purposes only. They are not invitations nor an open call to anyone you don’t wish to share your time or body with. The idea is that many people (especially men) feel that it is societally okay to say or do whatever with women, even benignly, without giving a moment’s consideration to the person being an autonomous person with agency. What you do with your body and clothes is your choice, sexy or not (and I have been creeped on in non-sexy clothing), and people should respect that.
It’s not about what someone wears and it should never be about what the person who got hit on, or raped, or groped, is or was doing. It should be the person that WAS creepy or harmful that should be focused on. We spend so much time worrying about the person being made uncomfortable when we should look at the person making them feel awful.
Crendor not meaning rape or anything doesn’t mean that his judgements and values weren’t in line with that kind of larger picture thinking. Just because it was on the lower end of the scale doesn’t mean it doesn’t support some larger or more harmful things at the upper end. What point I was trying to make is that he was saying something that is part of a way bigger issue and he said it in a very rude, sexist and disrespectful way. This happens way too often with women.
If you dressed flirtily to get some awesome women to talk to you and one woman you didn’t want to came over and started touching you and you didn’t like it – is it your clothes fault or hers? Your representation is always precluded towards people you consent/allow to say or do things with.
To your first point, I completely agree. It doesn’t mean that your intentions are that way by any means. Heck, I agree completely with all your points :)
So don’t think you have to correct me, I am with you! But please try sift through the comment and see that I am trying to make a point where it’s.. Hmm, not acceptable, but ones actions are not to be condemned (Such as taking a second look when a man/woman is looking attractive and such – those kind of actions) But anything past that, I AGREE, is not ‘obligatory’ (Think that’s the right word) or appropriate.
I also know many men do push it and it’s distressing (at least to me) when I see women accepting it as the norm. And vice versa (it does happen in reverse at times, I assure you!).
Also, I understand that the little comments, such as Crendors, (no matter their intentions) do build towards the grand situation, but I’m trying to break the whole situation down a little more and ‘determine’ a point in which ones boundaries really are ‘breached’ . Not justifying such a comment by any means.
Very delicate subject for many, just sifting through it. So, no need to jump at me :)
As long as you aren’t invading someone’s personal space and being respectful, being friendly in an acceptable situation, I don’t think that’s terrible. I wrote a longer treatise on “When is it acceptable to talk to women” on tumblr: http://hotcityblues.tumblr.com/post/10633179661/how-to-talk-to-women-and-not-be-creepy
Basically the boundary is breached when you as a person don’t really consider the other person when making a move of some sort or feel that someone’s clothing rather than their body language or social situation determines whether you should go talk to them. Or if you just don’t even care.
I’m not jumping at you though? :/
Yep, spot on! If only more people could see it like that!
No, wasn’t saying that. I just know that you are very passionate for your cause :)
Thanks for taking the time to respond. Really learned something of value today, really. Keep the posts coming!
Great article and very illuminating discussion.
There’s one word I would like to flag here and that’s consent.
So in the case of the (not so fitting) car analogy, if you don’t have consent, that car is in fact locked and to break in, you would have to do violence to that car.
I also think these attempts to reinterpret “whore” is a very weak point in the argument. It is just a nasty and loaded word that hardly can be reduced to be harmless.Taking that word out of the conversation (and similar words) is one step in the fight against rape-culture.
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